Courtesy of National Radio - Nine to Noon 03/09/04

Presenter (Mary Wilson): Award-winning writer and director, Sima Urale, has been called New Zealand's most exciting talent in film. She's now settling into a three month stint at the University of Hawaii, having won a $40,000 inaugural Fulbright-Creative New Zealand Pacific Writer's residency. Aloha, Sima

Sima Urale: (Film writer and director, and winner of the Fulbright-Creative New Zealand Pacific Writer's residency): Aloha.

Presenter: It's a bit of a mouthful, isn't it? How is it going there?Courtesy of National Radio - Nine to Noon 03/09/04

Presenter (Mary Wilson): Award-winning writer and director, Sima Urale, has been called New Zealand's most exciting talent in film. She's now settling into a three month stint at the University of Hawaii, having won a $40,000 inaugural Fulbright-Creative New Zealand Pacific Writer's residency. Aloha, Sima

Sima Urale: (Film writer and director, and winner of the Fulbright-Creative New Zealand Pacific Writer's residency): Aloha.

Presenter: It's a bit of a mouthful, isn't it? How is it going there?Urale: Really good. Do you know, when I do my writing I turn into a hermit so I was a hermit in Wellington. Now I've come all the way to the tropics in Hawaii and I'm being an anaemic little hermit over here. I think my family would be really upset to hear that. I think they were hoping I'd get some sun but when I'm in writing mode I tend to stay indoors and yes, just write away.

Presenter: The script you're working on is for a new film, a feature-length movie which would be your first?

Urale: Yes, it is, yes, and it's about time I did a feature film. All my peers have done their feature films and I'm still sort of, crawling along.

Presenter: How is the work on the script going?

Urale: Good. Plenty of reading to do. There's a lot of flaws in the script. I'm the type of person that's highly critical of my own work so I will tend to go over things again and again and I mull over things and it takes me a long time to be happy with a project, and sometimes even an end product, some of my films that have won awards. I'm really self critical and all I can see is the flaws so hopefully I'll get to a stage that I'm happy with the script, yeah.

Presenter: How many times do you redraft it?

Urale: Oh, as many times as I want and, I can go through 20 drafts, 40, whatever it takes.

Presenter: Does someone have to say to you look, Sima, put it down now, it has to finish?

Urale: You know that won't work. If anyone said that to me (laughter) it wouldn't work because they wouldn't see it unless I'm really happy with it so it's funny, I won't show work that I'm not happy with, to anyone. Maybe my mother.

Presenter: Yes, but she'll always be supportive, won't she?

Urale: Yeah, oh she's fantastic so when I want good feedback you see, when I want positive feedback I show it to her.

Presenter: Mum's the one, yes.

Urale: She's really positive, she's fantastic and she gives really constructive criticism, and when I want the truth I show it to my brother (laughter) who basically tells me to my face whether it's stupid or not and , if it's all right, it means I'm sort of going somewhere but, otherwise, some of the feedback is oh, that's so stupid, Sima, so it's quite good to have family like that.

Presenter: What are the advantages of being in Hawaii, at the University? What does that give you?

Urale: Oh, wonderful resources. They have the Hamilton Library here which has basically got one of the largest collections of Pacific Island material, on the Pacific, and on mythology and legends and throughout the Pacific, because my feature film is actually about a Polynesian family when the gods come to life into the present day so - to try and stay alive through the mind of one of the characters of one of the children, so it's wonderful to have this resource of all these different Pacific Islands that we don't have in New Zealand. You know, in New Zealand we only come to trade on the South Seas. In Hawaii they only tend to focus on this end so, there's a lot of detachment from the other side of the Pacific because of the borders and, having fallen under different super powers. So it's wonderful to have this exchange of ideas and to study and look at each other's legends and myths and stories.

Presenter: You've been called, I note, a pioneer of Pacific story-telling in films. It's a heavy responsibility, isn't it?

Urale: Yes, but it's not true (laughter). I don't think I am anyway. Yes, that makes me sound really old. No, basically I just do what I like doing and I guess film is still a fairly new area for Pacific Island stories but the Maori, as far as Polynesians go, they're doing amazingly well and I must say the Maori have really paved the way for us Pacific Islanders to come through. It paves the way for theatre and now film and so it's been really positive and, they're fantastic role models for the rest of us in the Pacific.

Presenter: I see also that Samoa is claiming you as its first female director?

Urale: Well (laughter) yes, mind you I wouldn't say that yet because until I make my first feature, then I will consider myself a real director so -

Presenter: You don't think that the short movies, the award-winning short movies count in that way?

Urale: Oh yes, no, no, I'm really amazed. I think they're really fantastic but, I have this funny thing, I don't know what it is, whether it's insecurities or what but, unless you've done a first feature, then you can truly say - give yourself the title "filmmaker". But I'm really excited about it and I know I'm going to make a first feature. It's just, -

Presenter: Finishing that script, yes.

Urale: Yeah.

Presenter: Do you think that you'd be interested in doing a Samoan-based story? You lived in Samoa until you were six?

Urale: Yes, but, it's a funny thing because when you're so - you're that close to home and - I think I would be ready to do a story over there when I'm about 50 or 60 years old.

Presenter: Really?

Urale: Only because it's so close to the heart and also I'm really westernised so a lot of my experiences are from, New Zealand so Aotearoa, so for the moment I'd like to delve into that side of me, my life and my experience in Aotearoa and maybe later on, you know, focus on a Samoan story based in Samoa. At the moment, the pool of actors, I would really love just the pool of actors to get a bit bigger, which I think will take another decade or so to get a good pool of actors.

Presenter: It sounds as if you've got some very interesting stories, though, about your family's life in Samoa. I've seen you described as a very non-conformist family. Tell me about that?

Urale: Yes, coming to New Zealand - we were all born in Samoa, us children, except for Bill, King Kapisi, and yes, we were pretty much born and grew up in grass huts, and no electricity back then so it was very much the village life we grew up in Samoa, and it's beautiful experiences that I remember, and we continually go back and forth and very close to our relatives back home but yes, our family would sometimes get into trouble. Mum and Dad were quite rebellious in their own way. Very staunchly Samoan but, very liberal in other ways as well, just the way they brought us up, some of the things they didn't do that didn't conform to within the village. And I guess when we emigrated to New Zealand I realised how - just how liberal Mum and Dad were which is really amazing, .

Presenter: One of the things, you didn't go to church very often, is that right?

Urale: Yes. No, we didn't and Mum and Dad didn't take us and the aunties would have to come round and sneak us off to church without telling Mum and Dad but -

Presenter: And they were the only adults in the village who didn't go?

Urale: Yes, the only family, so they'd often get fined.

Presenter: It's amazing.

Urale: It wasn't because Mum and Dad are non Christians, and I'm sure they are Christian at heart, they do believe in a god. It was just the conforming thing which I think they had a problem with, being told what to do. Even though they're very Samoan, and they did everything, within their family and the community, they did everything that would be expected of Samoans, but I guess when they were told to do something that they didn't want to do - , they really put us kids first and didn't like to conform, basically.

Presenter: And you kids weren't saying, come on, just do it, don't get into trouble, don't embarrass us? You were on their side?

Urale: No, we were small then and we knew that they put us first and, and that's quite unusual too back then in those days. You know, they - Mum actually celebrated our birthdays and you didn't do that back then in those days. Birthdays are not a Polynesian thing.

Presenter: So where had she got that from? Why did she decide to do that?

Urale: Oh, she did it - western influences, what she saw, being raised, with her cousin, she saw a lot of westerners coming through and she was a teacher herself and she would converse and talk a lot with Palangis that came over to teach or were principals over there, and she was just really in awe and really curious as to what the western culture got up to. And so Mum, adopted some of this. And she read to us as well which was really a strange thing to do back in the Islands, to read to your kids, . And back then the status of being a teacher was really highly regarded, back then in village life, and Mum was a teacher and she would read to us storybooks which the rest of the village found quite strange. And then Mum was telling me one day that she was reading to us but other kids would slowly start to come in and listen and next thing, you know, she's like reading to the women as well and she said she read a story, the whole novel over several weeks, of what is it - the Monte Cristo - Count Monte Cristo story?

Presenter: Ah yes, yes, yes.

Urale: I mean isn't that amazing, . Over a fire she reads a story and translated it, translated the whole book to , the village women and -

Presenter: And slowly they come around?

Urale: Yes, because you know, many people back then couldn't read, they didn't know what the western world was like, so when Mum would describe things, it was just like a magical world. There was no film or tv but these books with these stories in it, and countries that they'd never heard of, and Mum's translating these stories for them. I mean I just think that's so stunning, so Mum herself is a natural storyteller.

Presenter: We can see where you got it from. You still found it very hard, though, when you came over to New Zealand?

Urale: Yes, it was a bit hard adapting. I guess, you know, not being able to speak English properly. Mum taught us a few things but, you know, but it was more like, that is an apple, that is a tree, and yes, it was a struggle. We were very poor and ended up staying with an uncle first of all, with his five kids so, it was like a full house and then we ended up in a flat six months later, a two-bedroom flat and we had to sleep width-ways to fit onto the bed because we also had aunties that also immigrated with us and came over soon after us, and there were three aunties so they had the other room, and so you know, us kiddies would lie sleep with Mum and Dad width-ways on the bed in a very small little flat.

Presenter: And at this stage there were six kids, yes?

Urale: Yes, six kids and Dad had to work in a factory which was really hard to cope with when, when you're a kid and you're used to seeing your Dad, walking down the village, laughing, smiling and whatever, and just a different gait the way he walked and everything, to suddenly being in this new country when, Dad couldn't speak English at all, trying to cope, watching him trying to cope and watching him having to go to work in a factory. It was just so weird and gloomy and dark.

Presenter: So he lost a lot of status in that transition?

Urale: Yes, he didn't lose a lot of status. I guess it's something that happens to a lot of immigrants, a lot of immigrants when, the countries that they leave - I mean, so it's really common. It's just, what they give up, what they sacrifice for their children is actually quite a lot, to have to come here, work in a gloomy factory and get up four o'clock in the morning to go to work. It was just such a strange thing to watch your Dad do that.
Presenter: It is extraordinary, isn't it, that idea that your life is now only about the future and your children and your own particular individual needs are kind of put on hold?

Urale: Yes, I think, I mean I think that shows how much they loved us and, they wanted a piece of this new world and whatever it was, this new western world, and that's what Mum and Dad did for us and sacrificed for us and -

Presenter: You found school very hard though, didn't you?

Urale: Oh, I hated school. But if kids are listening to this, don't take heed. I think it's worth it but I mean personally I didn't like school very much at all.

Presenter: More than the normal average kid doesn't like school? It was something a bit more than that?

Urale: I just found it really hard to cope with school and I went quiet, because I was a little drama queen when I was a kid and then I think I went pretty quiet throughout school and one of my older sisters said that I must be autistic or something because I just refused to listen to people and I found it quite hard, the fact of accepting that you had to do what everyone else was doing and I don't know whether a bit of that was from Mum and Dad. But the whole idea of having to do what someone else said was really hard for me to cope with, yes.

Presenter: And that went through your entire school days?

Urale: Yes, and I think that made me miserable. I wish there were alternative schools available back then but there weren't, but, I don't think I coped too well. I mean I did pass School C which surprised my family and surprised myself, but yes, I just found school really strange - strange things for people to have to do. But I'm just glad that these days there are more alternative schools. And , I was also - I was always into the arts you see, so I couldn't understand why you were doing all this other stuff.

Presenter: And arts saved you in a way?

Urale: Yes, and in fact I wanted to go to a school of fine arts but instead I ended up at, Toi Whakaari, New Zealand Drama School, and then I ended up at a film school in Australia.

Presenter: Well, not ended up. You applied for quite a prestigious course that lots and lots of people want to get into and you were interviewed and you were accepted?

Urale: Yes, yep. They only take 14 people a year so I was one of the lucky few that got through, and it was an amazing time at the film school because it's all practical. You know, one essay in the whole year and - but because I'd been through the New Zealand Drama School where it's very much the same type of hours, very full on, all practical, so I was sort of used to that kind of practical course, so that when I went through film school I just thoroughly enjoyed it and took whatever I could take.

Presenter: You made a conscious decision to move away from acting into directing?

Urale: I did. You know, acting is a funny thing because, I'd acted professionally for two years after drama school and had a wonderful time. I acted in some Maori plays, I acted in some, Pakeha plays, white plays, Shakespeare, whatever, and I did that for two years and it was really wonderful but at the same time a real eye opener. I realised that as an actor you don't have much control and you're basically cast and you're made to do, what other people want you to do.

Presenter: How surprising - how surprising that you wouldn't like that!

Urale: Yes, how surprising! Well, that's when I decided well, how do I take control? I know what, I'll be a director and tell my stories and what I want to say, so that's when I looked to a film school and I really thought film and television would be much more accessible than what theatre was because what I realised at the end of the two years of professional theatre was that it was the same crowd that came two years ago. And I go well, where are the new faces? Where are the brown faces? And I realised , that the majority of people actually watch a lot of television and films and that's when I realised what a powerful tool film and tv was and that it was an area that I needed to delve into if I really wanted to tell my stories and that was one way of outputting it. I'm not putting theatre down. I love theatre still but just that film and theatre can carry - I mean film and tv can go to the other side of the world, it can travel, it can last, it has a long shelf life and yes - and plus , being the director and writer, I can create my own stories and tell the issues that I feel most concerned about.

Presenter: And one of your first stories was about the responsibility that older Pacific Island children have for their younger siblings?

Urale: Yes, and that film was "O Tamaiti" and was funded by the New Zealand Film Commission and it's all in Samoan and it's subtitled. In fact it doesn't even need to be subtitled because it's so - people after watching it, realise how visual and, it's visual and sound orientated. It's kind of arty, the film, and it's black and white.

Presenter: And why did you decide not to have it in English, to have subtitles?

Urale: Well, because for me, for the credibility of the story, if I was going to do a Samoan family, a newly immigrated family, they had to speak Samoan. There was no way they were going to speak English. If they spoke English, I wouldn't have much faith in it myself. I wouldn't believe in the story as well, so they had to speak Samoan but also, there are so many wonderful French films out there, Chinese films, Asian films, Indian films. I was just like, gee, why is New Zealand stuck on this English thing, ? We're made up of all sorts of cultures and we should be able to speak our own language so - and I think to prove that, our own language can work wherever it goes, "O Tamaiti" ended up winning all those awards and I think it surprised everyone. And what it means is that the issues really came through, that it's not about the language barrier, language isn't a barrier, it's whether your issues come through that film, and a lot of people could relate to the film because , Italians and other cultures, Catholics, could all relate to the issues that I was bringing up in "O Tamaiti".

Presenter: And why was that particular story so compelling for you, because you saw the problems that the children had or you wanted to endorse what is a cultural thing?

Urale: Yes, I wanted to really for adults in general to take more note of children, the responsibility. It's a huge responsibility that adults often put on children and it's so common through, whether you're Pakeha or Samoan or whatever. Often adults will put a lot of pressure on older siblings to look after the younger children, and sometimes to the extent where it's what we call child abuse, and so I wanted to make that point so that - so it was a bit of a critique of my own culture but it actually is a critique of, society in general in that we need to take care of our children much better, much more, and also that - and I do touch on it a bit, that having more children isn't necessarily a good thing. I touch on that and it's just a visual - one visual shot in the film. All it is, is the mother at the end of the film rubbing her tummy and the children noticing her stomach. In other words, she's pregnant again and so just that one shot was very suggestive and, you know it said a lot, whether people could cope with having more children. In other words, it's the quality of life for children is much more important than just, popping them out.

Presenter: And yet this is a short film that I think won how many awards, eight?

Urale: Yes, eight, so yes, it did really well and -

Presenter: It struck a chord.

Urale: Yes, it definitely did, and even in America it struck a chord and won some awards in some of the festivals there and all over Europe. And it's had a really long life and it continues to screen today and what's really neat is that a lot of people are using it to - for educational purposes which is really what excites me most, because then people are using it as a tool to show to children and adults in prisons and community groups and they're showing it to schools, and I think that's really neat. And I think apart from, from Pacific islanders watching it and feeling like oh look, here's a film with our faces in it, it's also the issues involved so that people can sort of dwell on them and think about them, and it creates a lot of discussion.

Presenter: So do you think you have to approach a full feature movie in quite a different way?

Urale: Yes. I approach all my films in a different way so yes, I seem to do that. Like Velvet Dreams, I went totally opposite to O Tamaiti because I didn't want people to typecast me in that particular genre. You know, oh, here's a serious art house film maker. After O Tamaiti did so well I think people expected me to come out with heavy stuff all the time and, I deal with social issues but it doesn't necessarily have to be done in a heavy way, so I dealt with some social issues and stereo types in Velvet Dreams, a documentary, but I did it in a humorous way just to show how, the different things that I can do but also the different - , our Polynesian sense of humour as well, the way we can laugh at ourselves as well, so -

Presenter: And that was about the depiction of Pacific Island women through a very romanticised white male lens?

Urale: Yes, yep, and what I did was, that the narrator, in fact he comes across as a white male and his comments are all kind of sexual innuendo and stuff like this but he's a lot of fun. But the narrator, you end up really liking the narrator throughout the film.

Presenter: Even as he searches for his dusky maiden?

Urale: Yes. I mean I totally played up the sensuality and the sexism and brought it all out, rather than suppress it, and I think what some people expected of me was sort of to make it some heavy political thing and, that's it, and hammer people over the head but the way I wanted to do it was to show up the sensuality because they are sensual. There's no mistaking it, and also admire them at the same time. So the film is a critique but also, I think, really admires these white male painters that painted women in the Pacific. And actually, by the end of the film you realise that these men, - most of these men - I'm sure others are more touristy but these men actually, fell in love with the women and married them and so it was also making people - my people look at these white men, that they're not - it's not just simply black and white, it's not just - , and making white people realise that we're just not these sort of gentle fantasy women in the islands, that , we're actually aggressive at times and , we do all sorts of silly things as well, .

Presenter: Yes. What can we expect from Moana then? You've talked about it, it's based on traditional Polynesian myths and legends in an urban setting. Is there some more you can say?

Urale: Yes, I probably didn't describe it very well. I'm really bad at pitching ideas but yes, it's basically, set in a contemporary setting today and the gods strive to stay alive, the gods Tangaroa and Mahana the moon and, throughout Polynesia we pretty much have all the same gods but we have different names for them, and these gods strive to stay alive through the little girl Moana. And moana means ocean or blue, the sea, which is a really generic word in Polynesia so yes. And it's about a Pacific Island family, probably set in Otara or Porirua, who are born in New Zealand, who have become so detached that they no longer speak or ask questions about their identity or where they're from, and so it's about that thing of being so westernised. But, they don't question where they come from or where they've, been, and so this film is about the gods striving to stay alive in the minds of Polynesian people. And the gods are really quite wonderful stories because, they're really ethics. They're like the Greek myths and legends, the Polynesian myths and legends. I mean they're huge. Maui, parts the sky and the earth with his paddle and does amazing things so -

Presenter: And the question is, whether you can get Cliff Curtis to be in it?

Urale: Oh, no problem (laughter)

Presenter: (laughter) That's who we want to see!

Urale: Oh yes, I see. Oh no, Cliff is someone that I do want to be part of the project, whether it's behind the scenes even. He's always been interested in being behind the scenes as well. So, whether it's working together as a team to make it happen or whether it's acting in it but no, Cliff is a really cool guy and he's always been really supportive of my work and, same with me with his. I'm so proud of him, he's amazing, yes.

Presenter: It's lovely to talk to you, Sima. Thank you very much for your time.

Urale: Thank you very much.

Presenter: That's Sima Urale. She is an award-winning writer and director over at Hawaii at the moment in a writer's residency, working on a script for a feature-length movie, Moana.