In the latest How Freelancers Can Succeed interview, Ande Schurr talks to Film Construction’s Phil Liefting.

 Liefting talks about the director/producer relationship, dealing with advertising agencies, pitching for a job and winning, the first step for aspiring producers and his work ethic.

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I think the most enjoyable part of any film shoot is when there is a great feeling on set for each other and the job ahead.

A good example of this was on a recent TV commercial I recorded sound on.

The six day job was for ALAC (Alcohol Advisory Council) which goes to air at the end of March.

The film company who won the job was a producer/director team from Film Construction: Phil Liefting as producer and Nic Finlayson as director.

It got me thinking how beneficial it would be for newer freelance producers – and also for directors who wish to partner with the right producer - to hear how Phil went about implementing Nic’s winning ALAC pitch.

Phil kindly made time to be interviewed and explained candidly how they won the job.

He shares his insight into what makes a great director/producer partnership, he discloses a personal story that holds the key for any director wanting to get recognised with a larger advertising agency EVEN if their previous commercials were low budget and poorly made. For the aspiring producers, he explains that a film school education or background is not necessary to get started and that starting at the very bottom may be the best thing you can do.

The Director/Producer Relationship

Does the director/producer relationship start with a friendship?

I don’t know if they generally do start with a friendship but Nic and I are very good friends and I think that works. Over the years we’ve got to know each other really really well.

I have known Nic for about 10 years but have been working with him for four years. He has been in the commercials game for approx 10 years.

Nic’s a great guy to work with and he’s very production savvy as well but there are producer / director relationships where the director is the director and the producer is the producer.  So it’s money vs. creativity which can get quite tense at times especially when the director wants more and the producer wants to give less.

So as a rule, I don’t think that is the case but I think with Nic and I it works really well. And we’re always trying to get the best. I mean, obviously we’re trying to earn a living doing this but we’re always trying to get the best results. We’re very proud of what we do work on and we want to make sure we always give it as much as we possibly can.

There’s some work you do put out that is not always great and that is the compromise between having a client and you being a director and having an agency in-between. There are so many parties pulling and pushing and wanting different things. That happens, but we take great pride in what we do and want to always put things out. So I think the fact that we’re both aiming at a creative result, mainly, makes us work together quite well - but ultimately we are doing this to make a living.

Because we work along the same lines we do work together better and because we’re great friends we work together as well but I don’t know if that is the norm all over - especially overseas, some of the director producer relationships can be quite tense. It is about personalities and Nic is such a good personality as well. Such a calm nice guy. But there are directors that are pretty fiery and their sole focus is to make the prefect ad but it does get difficult [with such an attitude].

It sounds like you have a lot of creative input in the process?

In the earlier stages, definitely. Nic is still the creative driving force, and I’m the producer, but because I come from an agency background you focus a lot on the creative side of things. I got used to, after so many years in the agency, looking at the creative vision that the creatives wanted.

Dealing with Advertising Agencies

I have worked on commercials where the director is cursing because the agency are saying “can we try it this way, can we try it that way” yet, watching you on the ALAC commercial, I saw that you filtered a lot of things out so Nic could get on with the job. How do you personally manage an agency?

I worked 7 years at Colenso and 6 years at Mojo advertising agencies and then freelancing as well. I think the thing with managing the agency and Nic is I want Nic to have a bit of freedom – especially on a job like ALAC –  I wanted Nic to be able to do his job without - not so much the agency interfering -  but just to give him that freedom.

Sometimes the agency can breathe down a director’s neck. Because of the nature of this job, everything was tailored to give the actors as much freedom as possible. So I wanted to sit back and stay with the agency and communicate their thoughts – try to filter their thoughts as well. Sometimes it was stuff that Nic didn’t need to know. There was stuff that I could explain like “this shot leads into the next shot, this is the reason why we’re shooting it this way” and that sort of thing. I think it is important to try and let Nic have that freedom. But I also didn’t want to be sitting there with an RT saying “look we have to do it again” or “ can we move the camera slightly to the left” you know? Because you don’t want the whole crew to be sitting there listening to the agency direct from the back room. I was just trying to keep that balance.

I think it is something I have refined over the years but I think it is definitely a result of having been with the agency – knowing how they work and being able to sit with them, and talk them through what is actually happening and answer their questions.

The agency producer is the main conduit between the agency and the film company. I don’t necessarily always sit with the agency. It is a job by job basis. The guys on ALAC were fantastic. They gave us a lot of freedom and room to move. There was a lot of pressure on their side as well. This is the first ad they’ve done for ALAC - they’ve won the account recently - so there was pressure on them to do a good job. Plus, their client had pressure from the agency with the shift of the campaign – we had tried a different angle. So they could have really jumped in and tried to rule the shoot but it was important to keep it really free and open. And that’s why we did six days of shooting to give Nic and the actors and agency time to see what was happening and not this rapid fire shot-after-shot-after-shot. Doing three takes and then moving on was one of the main things [we implemented on this job] to keep the relaxed feel on the set.

Pitching for a Job and Winning

How did you win the ALAC job?

The pitching process is budget and treatment and both of them have to work. I don’t think we were the cheapest. The reason we won ALAC wasn’t anything to do with budget. It was about Nic’s treatment and research and the test film we did. Nic did the most amazing treatment and had a great angle. And the thing that I was most amazed in winning this job was the fact that [the initial] script and Nic’s treatment was slightly different. It was quite a composite FX driven script where it was more of a post [production] heavy script yet what we did was just true drama. It was all on camera, complete cuts.

Nic went a slightly different track which is a dangerous thing to do. You can get some agency and creatives who’ll go “yeah OK, that is good, but this is our script and you’ve gone and changed it”. But Nic hadn’t changed the script, he’d just given his vision of how he thought it should be put together. His treatment was outstanding – it was one of the best treatments I’ve ever seen. It was a book - a beautifully thought out book, the references were good, the research was good and the test film was great. The combination of all that made the agency realise that Nic was the right guy.

It was really Nic’s vision of the job that won it for us. [He went] into character development of the job and script development about how he saw the feel and tone of the commercial and the different sections of the treatment were on tone, vision and storyboards and everything really came together. It is something I can’t explain without showing you.

After you won the pitch, what was your first task as a producer?

The thing that made it very easy for me as a producer was that Nic had done a great treatment and we crossed the first hurdle, the agency wanted Nic to do it. The next part for the producer was “Ok, well we’ve got to make this budget work as well”. I needed more money. I’m sure the agency won’t mind me saying this but I asked for more money. I said look “you’ve got this much to do this properly and to do it Nic’s way we’d like this much”.

We felt it was better to shoot for longer and with a smaller crew and that gave more freedom on set for the actors and Nic to do his job. That was always a risk because the agency could have said “we’ve got another treatment that is not as good as Nic’s, but it is on budget” and then I’d be in trouble for killing the project.

We feel these days, with budget’s being compromised a lot, you really have to stick to your guns about what you think is right. Sure, cut corners and work the budget as well as you can but once it’s all signed off you have to get out there and make it and you had better have all the resources and people. The best people.

So the budget is a bit of a risk because I was more than everyone else. We budgeted to shoot for six days. But I just explained it. And this is another reason why the agency were great because they saw the value in going back to their client, which is an incredibly brave thing with their first commercial out and say “hey, we need more money”, because a lot of clients will instantly say “here we go – they got our account and as soon as we’re going to make our first commercial, straight away they want more cash”. It is a very difficult thing being able to explain that. Luckily, Nic goes into it in his treatment [with a section on] ‘Production Approach’ that I backed up as well when I put my budget together and submited it – what his approach would be and the reasons for that. It gave the agency something to go and sell to the client.

How do you hear about these jobs? How did you know there was an ALAC commercial to be made?

It is all about how long you‘ve been in the business – how well known people are, how well the agency know the film company and the director. It is all about marketing and getting yourself out there, getting your showreel and seeing agencies. Nic and I work predominately out of New Zealand , Australia and Singapore. That is where most of our work comes.

With the recession, when things were quiet, we were lucky that we had three countries to call on to get commercials. Of our last seven commercial campaigns – five have been out of Australia and we had a really good strong-hold in Singapore when we did quite a bit of work for the Singaporean agencies. Film construction markets up there as a film company but we’ve also been up there. We go around the agencies, try to get hold of them and show them the work we’ve been doing.

Do you just make an appointment to see an agency?

Yes. It’s a little trickier because we don’t know the people there, but we know the big agencies so we’ll get hold of them, find their head of TV or their creative director and try and get a meeting with them.  There are expats from NZ in Singapore which makes it easier, plus, Film Construction has some contacts too with the marketing they’ve been doing.

Australia is also tricky because it is a big market. Sydney is the main hub for advertising over there and it’s a very big market and there are a lot of people to see. So we’ve got people we know. I know people through my agency days that work in Sydney now and we get hold of them and say “can we show you our showreel” or just cold call some of the agencies.

In New Zealand, I’ve probably got a bit of an advantage having worked in the agencies so long that I know a lot of people on the agency side so it’s quite easy to make calls and get hold of people and go and see them. There are generally four or five big agencies that you’ve got to hit. There are probably ten or so in Sydney and the same number in Singapore.

Did you feel nervous introducing yourself to the big agencies when you were first making a name for yourself as a producer?

Absolutely. [When] approaching the executive and creative directors of big agencies you do get quite fearful but they’re just normal people and I’ve got to know a few over the years and they’re just great normal people who are just doing a job – although some can be quite ruthless!

And if they like you, will they say ‘we have a job, send us a pitch’?

That‘s right. They’ll send the script to the producer who’ll get it to the director who’ll start on a treatment. They’ll also send budget information. Time frames are always very short.

Do you drop everything to work on a pitch?

Some things we can’t do because of the timings – if we are in the middle of a job and they want to start shooting in 2-3 weeks we know we can’t do that. We’re quite good at scheduling stuff and trying to fit things in around each other, we quite often will be shooting a job and at the same time pitching on the next one. I think we ‘re lucky that Nic is doing so well in the market, so well as a director, that we do get quite a few scripts, so we can – not pick and choose – but we do have flexibility we don’t have to try and do every job that we see.

But for a starting off director or producer, it is a pretty tough road at times, you’re not seeing the best scripts around, you’re seeing the lower-end scripts and lower-end budgets. So it’s about building a relationship with agencies and creatives and showing them what you do.

The First Step for Aspiring Producers/Directors

So is the first thing for a new producer to visit those main 4-5 agencies and the smaller production houses?

The first thing is to get with a well-known film company. If you can get in with a good one. To do that you have to prove yourself which is usually through music videos or short films or whatever. Then the film company will give you advice on what agencies you need to see and you’ll be able to find out a lot. A lot of it is about building these relationships which in turn means you have to do the lower end scripts and budgets and get in and prove to them that you can do the job.

The difficulty is that you’re a new director or producer  - and they’re usually teams – and you’re trying to figure it out yourself - how to make good ads - but you’re also looking at scripts that aren’t the best scripts around and budgets that aren’t the best so it may feel that everything is against you. You’re also trying to earn a living at the same time so it’s a very tough road. That‘s why I think a good film company is quite important because they will add a little bit of credibility to you. The agencies will say “if this film company has taken these guys on they must have something“.

Lacking your contacts and experience, how would a newer producer/director team make an impact on a larger advertising agency?

Short film and music videos are an interesting angle. I remember particularly in Mojo, sitting there at one stage with the script and recommending  directors to the creatives and showing a showreel of a director and going through his only three ads on the show reel and the creative director is going “we’re never going to give this guy the job because all three ads are rubbish”. And I was like “no, wait – watch the music video” and we went on to their music video straight after. The guy sat there and went “got ya – that is pretty damn good and interesting”. The creatives were looking at the ads and not thinking about what the guys started with script-wise or budget-wise and there will always be those ads where you just can’t do anything with and sometimes the agencies will know that.

They know they just have to get the ad made and it’s bordering on retail or graphic heavy. But if you can give them something where they’ll say “this guy knows what he is doing” or “these guys have made a music video to look like it’s a million bucks when it’s probably five grand”.

I guess that the advantage that a lot of the younger producers will have these days is that technology is getting so much better and easier to shoot with. With the advent of the Canon 5D and the RED, you don’t necessarily  have to have 35mm or even 16mm these days. So there are ways of being smart about it as well so that is really important – to be smart about how you are making it.

But just be careful as well. A disaster with an agency is a disaster that can be heard around town. So be careful about process and getting the right people - getting a great cameraman on board because they will have shot for the best guys. It may be harder - begging and pleading - but getting good art department people on as well that you trust will help you. It’s your team. The team is always very important.

What would you say to those people who start their own company straight out of film school?

Unless you are incredibly good and incredibly confident it is going to be a tough road to start your own film company. Plus, if you are a director/producer team, you come out of film school and start your own company, most agencies will go “I don’t know if we can work with these guys, there’re too new – they don’t know anything about us” and they’re never going to give you big script or big budget or even a medium sized script or medium sized budget.

I think the best way is to try to sniff out charity scripts even though you’re not getting paid that well – or even no money. Even some charity scripts are hard to get hold of because if an agency has a charity script, they’re not so restricted by their clients, and because the charities aren’t paying, it gives a lot more creative flexibility to the agencies so the agencies are sometimes very protective of their charity scripts with no money. [Sometimes] they don’t want to give it to you and you say “well, you have no money!” but they’re the better ideas so if you can do a great charity script it can be a good thing to show agencies.

A lot of agencies will actually look at who you are working with as well as what you are working on. If you are working for Saatchi or Colenso or whoever it is, another agency will go “if Colenso and Saatchi are using these guys then there must be something there – they must be alright”.

Especially if you can do a good job and that is the important thing – to figure out how to make the budget work and make the script as good as it can possibly be.

What is the difference between a film producer and a commercial producer?

A film producer would be running the production more since a feature film is such a huge undertaking. They would source scripts whereas we get given scripts. It’s more about a relationship with a commercial film company being a commercials producer. The feature film producer would probably be actively hunting scripts and ideas.

What is your current arrangement at Film Construction?

I worked in the agencies for so long – which was a salary position – then I took the plunge into freelancing where you only get paid by the job. I’m not on a retainer – I get my office at Film Construction and they do some marketing and keep the phones ringing in exchange for a cut of the commercials we make.

I was lucky that Nic was already advanced. He had been making commercials for a few years so it wasn’t like he was just beginning. We’ve worked together for four years now and we’ve constantly had work since we started working together.

How did you rise to your level? Did you start working for free?

I started as a runner at Colenso. I wanted to get into an advertising agency but not into the creative side of things – I didn’t feel that was me – but loved the production side of things. I found a way to get into an agency.

If you can get in low then you can work your way up. It’s harder to work your way up in an agency. But I got a job as a runner and said to myself “I’m going to work my arse off and prove to them that I am a good employee”. So I spent a year and a half as a runner then almost hamstrung myself because I kept pestering the head of TV saying “give me a break – I’ll do your dubbing or whatever” and he came to me one day and said “we’d love to take you into TV production but they don’t want to let you go as a runner – you’re too good”. I said to him “I can be worse!” In the end, the head of TV said “I’ll make it happen as long as you stop bugging me about working in TV production” so I started as a production assistant.

What qualifications did you have?

I went to Auckland Tech and did business management - law papers and accounting papers - then I got to the end of the degree and I thought “this is so not want I want to do”. I spent three years doing a degree that I didn’t want to pursue. So I thought “let’s change track”.

How long did it take to get the clarity of wanting only to be a producer?

I knew before I got to the agency side. I looked around and investigated a lot of careers while I was at Auckland Tech and the advertising thing seemed glamorous but also very interesting putting ideas on TV and the film side of things as well. But I thought that I was getting too old to go back and study – even though I was only 21 – so I thought I’d try this track.

Do you need a film school background to be a producer?

No you don’t but you need that background somehow. If you’re not going to go through film school then you need to work your way through an agency or a film company, perhaps approach them to be their runner - because all film companies have runners - and work your way up.

How did you earn your technical knowledge of running large TV commercials?

I didn’t know a lot about it, but I learned while I was at the agency by asking many questions and keeping my eyes open on set. [Also] reading material, researching it myself. When I went to the film company side, there were more relevant people closer who you could actually talk to about film.  But I suddenly realised that when I started working with Nic – I mean working with a DOP (Director of Photography), how much better can you get! Nic has been a DOP all his life so he has an incredible knowledge of film and he started as a stills photographer so he was a great person to learn off.

From an agency producer point of view, you still have to look at budgets and make sure you think that they are right. A lot of the time, the film companies would just send the budget [as a lump figure] but I always requested a break down so I could see their approach and check if we had everything there because you get to a shoot and the creatives are saying “where is the crane“- for the crane shot - and they’re doing it off a scaff-tower. That is not want we want so you had to know that sort of stuff.

There is a slight weakness in the industry these days where people are coming out and don’t have a very good technical knowledge from the agency side. I think there is a bit of a responsibility on the film company to educate some of the agency people on the technical side of things because the more they know the less they ask and the more confident and comfortable they will be. What a great ‘in’ for a film company to go and teach some agency people what we do more in depth than they know.

The Work Ethic of Phil Liefting

Are you a self made man or have you relied on mentors and guides?

 I think I am more self-made. I have figured a lot of things out. It’s the way I am. I like to research stuff. I like to have people around to ask questions and bounce stuff off, but I look at it myself and figure a lot out myself. I don’t know if that is the best way to do it. It would be great to have a mentor a lot of times. There have been times where I’ve thought it would be great to have someone above. I have great friends and a twin brother who is an amazing person. He’s a mechanic and such a different person than me but he’s someone I’ve always admired – a very strong guy and different to me. But a lot of it has been my own self drive and wanting to succeed.

How do you get that self-drive?

A lot of people criticise the advertising agency but I actually really love it and I love making ads and they see it. As soon as you see someone making ads, a lot of people go “Briscoes” and you go “not really”. I’ve made 30-40 Briscoes ads in my time and that has got its purpose, and still needs to be done well, but to make some great commercials – we made a LANDSAR (New Zealand Land Search & Rescue) commercial and a water safety commercial and we were just very very proud. We got to work with WETA Workshop on a Charity job and that was about just using your resources well but it’s when people really like the ad and comment on it and it feels like a really great piece of work - that is great motivation in itself to do well.

There is also a bit of nervousness about not failing as well. You don’t want to be seen as not getting it right, and getting it completely wrong but that is just part and parcel of life really isn’t it – you are going to get stuff wrong.

The film industry can be a mechanical place where money is everything. How do you deal with it so you keep your soul, so to speak?

I think it’s harder to survive the industry if you’re just about the money because eventually you’re going to get a little tired of making ads. It has to be about the ideas, the creativity, the advertising and producing good products. That is ultimately what we do do and I think that some people forget about that.

Does your work give you a real satisfaction?

Yes. I mean, my life is mainly about my family, but I do enjoy what I do and I have pride in what I do and that is very important also.

How do you deal with the angst of being a producer, when there’s such a large responsibility on your shoulders?

There can be remarkable stress at times. There can be times when it feels like it is all falling to pieces. And it’s really just about trying to keep a cool head and [thinking] what is going to make things better. If you have got a problem, to not get caught up in your worries about what people are going to think and what financial impact it is going to have but focus on what will fix the problem.

I particularly dislike – and I had it last year where there was a big problem on a shoot, a major schedule screw up, and it meant that we were already in overtime and it was going to be a two hour delay which is unacceptable because two hours of overtime can cost a hell of a lot of money and I got very frustrated with the fact that I had to get three people together to fix the problem and I stood there for about two minutes while everyone finger pointed and said “it wasn’t my fault” and I just said “this is ridiculous - I don’t care whose fault it is, I’m focused now on what is actually going to fix the problem. That is what we need to think of first and we’ll deal with the rest later”. You have to keep focused on the most important thing and checking your result.

It is a joy being around people on set who are lacking in any kind of negativity. They have seemed to outgrow any trace of it. Do you find that’s what really does it for you?

I think you choose the people who are positive. You make sure you work with the positive people. Negativity doesn’t generate anything really; it just makes things more difficult. You have to be positive and pushing forward and trying to work with positive people who want to achieve good results. But you surround yourself with such people, I know we do. People like you who are just enthusiastic and want to help and don’t present problems instead they present solutions. You just don’t want the people who you say to “ah look, this is not working well” and they turn around and say “and this is not working well either”. You want the person who will turn around and go “I reckon I know how to fix that”.

Give us one last piece of advice for a newer freelance producer

Stick at it. It’s going to be tough at the start – it always is- but you just have to persevere, believe in yourself and find a good director to work with as well. And someone you get one with. I think that is important. It’s not focused on much these days – people will just work with anyone to get in and get forward but find that person you work well with.