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Ande Schurr interviews three line producers who have a healthy track record of bringing home international commercials.

They delve deeper into the business of line production, including improving and selling the advantages of filming in New Zealand.

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Our film industry incites great loyalty. There is something special about working with directors and producers who pour their heart and soul into their film, or art department who push the boundaries of design and logistics, technical crew who respond masterfully to each challenge in front of them, and our actors who can make a project fun and rewarding in yet another way. This is our film industry and we are fortunate to have a strong awareness of its value by government agencies and a good many people who maintain our image carefully so that the world sees who we are; our openness to overseas projects, flexibility and an overall generosity of spirit towards them.

This interview however is about another industry that exists under the same term 'film industry'. They are the line producers whose production companies service the large number of television commercials brought to New Zealand and, as Iris Weber says, "are the bread and butter of the industry that keep many of us entertained". Although, it seems, not as much a focus of governmental bodies, they are critical to keeping our crews and actors constantly working and prompt from them that same high level of commitment.

In the pursuit of learning what the reality of our film industry is, versus the perceived image, I interviewed three line producers each with a healthy track record of bringing home international commercials. The topics they raise would form an all-rounded education for anyone wanting to delve deeper into the business and considerations of line production, or simply to understand the larger forces that lie behind the workings of our industry.

We know that one's image is a frail thing; built over a long period of time and sometimes ruined in an instant - often thanks to the speed in which an inaccurate story can travel around the world. It is my intention that this interview be read in its entirety so nothing might be taken out of context.

I will let our panel of Anzak Tindall from Joyride Films, Iris Weber from Batch Film, and William Grieve from Big Pictures to take over and explain the issues that concern them, and what we might do to help.

• In Summary

Anzak Tindall: Lately it's just felt a lot harder than it used to be to secure work. I've seen what's happened in Australia, it's a disaster. Yet we appear to be heading in their direction, and need to reconsider our strategy. There is no strategic outlook for the whole industry at our own peril. We need a forum where people can come together and look at some of the trends in the industry, where NZ is sitting in terms of the international service sector and re-evaluate itself.

Iris Weber: 'No' is not something that exists in this industry. The more we can get the people involved on the outskirts of the industry to understand this, the better for all of us. The image of NZ is prestige locations, great crew. If any of that gets damaged the impact is huge. So we need to put more effort into preserving that. The image created in Sydney of not being a film-friendly city has spread world-wide and it's very hard to undo, even if it's no longer true.

William Grieve:  We can't be complacent about our locations. Other countries have some great locations too. Or crew or equipment - we used to think we had an edge over places like Argentina or Brazil in that regard, but I am not sure that is true anymore. But we do have the whole package here - wonderful and diverse locations, great talent, great art department and some really innovative crew. The sort of crew who can build things and solve problems. We speak English - which isn't a bad thing - and we can give off shore visitors a pretty good time. The hotels are good, restaurants are good and getting better all the time, the wine is great. We just have to keep working really hard to get that story across to the rest of the world, because you can bet every other country is.

What's your background?

Anzak: I’ve been a musician, an aircraft engineer for 11 years, then I joined Silver Screen as a director's assistant because I wanted to further my career in the creative arts. At Silverscreen I went on to become a production manager and then a producer for them for eight years. Then I started Joyride, a small production service company, in 2003 about 3 years before the collapse of Silver Screen. I could see the signs coming that they didn't have long.  I got out in time and followed a dream that had been growing to set up my own company.

Iris:  I'm Austrian and started off as a stills photographer, camera assistant then DoP. I'd seen a bit of the world and realised NZ was special. After being here for 3-4 weeks on a job I had an incredible urge to come back. I came in 1996 for a test year to see if the reality matched my image and it did.  Brad Avery and I opened our first company in NZ in 2000 – which is now Batch Film.

William: After studying law and political science at Uni naturally I went straight into the film business. This was in the early '80s. Initially I worked on feature films as a production manager. Then one day, about 20 years ago, I responded to a call from a Hong Kong production company who needed someone to assist them in NZ with a shoot for United Airlines. As it turned out the director, Louis Ng, was one of the most successful in Asia and it was the start of a very long relationship - his company still shoots here with us once or twice a year. From that initial job our contacts have spread around Asia, Europe and the US so that line production work is mainly what I do now.

Do crew understand how important the international service sector is to NZ?

Anzak: I think the average crew member is looking to many different places to earn their living.  However I think this particular sector is becoming more important to NZ and for crew and suppliers to survive and prosper they are increasingly looking to the sector. 

Iris:  I think they do although overall they have no appreciation of what we do and how much work there is before and after the bringing in a job and the aftermath and issues like immigration, D.O.C, actor's equity or Film NZ. That is a never ending battle and has quite an impact on what kind and what quantity of jobs we are going to attract to NZ in the next 5-10 years. 

William: Yes, I think crew do. I am not sure if some actors' representatives do. It is not just the volume of work but also the type of jobs. Recently we shot a job for the Audi A8L for China in 3D - at the same time another service company was shooting a car job using a Russian arm (stabilised remote arm) and someone else had brought in a Stab C Super Gyro heli mount - local commercial makers just don't get to play with those sorts of toys that often. It is important that our crews get the chance to work with them, and also get the chance to work with some really great overseas directors, DPs and so on, who all come with their own perspectives. It's interesting.

Who are our competitors and where do your clients come from?

Anzak: Our work comes from all over the world. Our real competitors in the service sector are the likes of South Africa, South America, & Australia. Australia has somewhat dropped out of the game because it's already gone down a ruinous path and so my biggest concern is that we don't become like them. Thailand, Malaysia, Eastern Europe, & even India now are also strong players in our sector and we’re losing work to all these regions.

Since the Lord of the Rings came out, NZ was seen as being the place to come and shoot. We did very well off the back of those movies - it was the Lord of the Rings 'effect'. So now we have to get a new string to our bow and find new ways to ensure we are impressing our overseas clients with our capability and, not just that but, since the global recession it's becoming increasingly about value.

Thailand, Malaysia, Eastern Europe, India are strong players in our sector and I'm losing work to them. It is not bad though. I've just done a big UK project - those guys come here every second year and they know what they're going to get when they get here. But it's not just the regulars that we need to keep happy, it's the new business we need. I just feel that there are certain factors that are influencing people to look elsewhere.

Iris: Our work mainly comes from Europe and the States. We're not overly keen on a Chinese or Korean market. Other companies have figured out dealing with them much better. It is good to know your strength. Places like Argentina do have beautiful landscapes, but at the end of the day ours are more out-standing. It comes down to how far the particular location needed is away from the crew. In Argentina, in order to travel your crew down to Bariloche, it ends up being more expensive than being able to shoot it here in NZ. So overall it may be more expensive, but because the location is just an hour outside of Queenstown, NZ can compete. The savings come in the execution and distance to location.

William: Most of my work seems to come from the UK, Europe or Asia, particularly China. For European and UK jobs we have a hard job getting them to travel past South Africa which is closer, apparently cheaper and in the same time zone as the UK. South America is also a big competitor for jobs from Europe and the US - not just Argentina but also Brazil and Chile as well. Companies from Europe or the US have to have a pretty good reason to fly twice the distance and pay more. South America has most of the same locations we have, as well as older more European looking cities and some truly stunning modern architecture. Eastern Europe has also been a favourite location for commercial makers from all around the world for a long time, but I hear that it isn't as popular now as it once was because costs have increased so much. We should learn from that. 

How many jobs do you quote per year? Are crew and supplier rates in New Zealand reasonable?

Anzak: I have had and strive for a success rate of about 1 in 7. When the success rate starts going up to 1 in 20, or something crazy like that, then it's time to get real.

I know of one crew member who hadn't been getting much work so he raised his rate. He needed to make more money to survive. I feel for that person but the problem is, if everyone does this, the entire cost of doing a production goes up. When I look at the figures I was quoting in 2004 not long after I started Joyride Films they were 20% lower than now. That is very roughly 2% higher per year since. I guess that is not an outrageous increase but, when you factor in the exchange rate - back then the British Pound was about .36 and now it's .46 - that is 28% higher. The US dollar was around .6, and now it's around .74 which is 23% higher. So together we are over 40% higher, dollar for dollar, than we were back in 2004. That’s a big jump.

Crew and suppliers are not thinking as a collective. We all have our own survival to think of, but we are getting less work because it's more expensive now than it used to be, so crew are not going to get as much work because we're not as competitive as we used to be. It's a simple equation but it's not being understood.

Iris:   Batch Film alone quotes up to 300 jobs per year - we get 10-15. Five years ago there would have been 50 job enquiries and I would still have had 10-15 jobs out of that. The rate has increased so dramatically. Obviously the growth of a company is a factor and the awareness overseas but the other is also that the amount of random 'gun fire' quoting has increased. Before, a project would have looked into two different countries; now they look at it and go "let's ask six countries". So if three different production companies/ three different directors in Paris, quote let’s say five different countries, therefore 15 service production companies have been involved but only one is going to get it. So chances are slim.

But what I'm talking about is an opportunity  - in theory 300 projects that want to come to NZ - they might not come to us, they may be quoting with someone else, but they are potential and I take it that NZ could easily double the amount of jobs we do - for the good of the industry. It's a bit of a catching your own tail scenario. The industry needs to step up one in order to still be strong in the next few years; the fact that we can't keep a Gyron or a Wescam, because we just don't have the amount of jobs; we're not South Africa, we're probably not even doing a fifth of the jobs they do. 

I think it is a concern when crew keep raising their rates. Although it's the way it is done that gets me more started. The fact that they don't seem to understand that we're quoting on a daily basis and they just keep shifting their rates randomly. The protocol is if someone raises their rate they should send out an email informing Production companies (also a good way to remind people of their qualities and why they should be on the job). I'm not good at dealing and wheeling with crew over daily rates. For me personally it's the last place to save money. Those people have to pay mortgages and have families. 

The opportunity is there as we can see from the amount of jobs that get bided to come to NZ so we have to ask 'how can we get those jobs here'.

William: A couple of summers ago when the NZ dollar was around US 50 cents every second or third bid was successful. Now it seems to have reverted to the longer term average of around 1 in 10. It can be a lot of work endlessly bidding jobs that don't happen - not just for me. For example I will frequently ask an art director to help me bid the art department costs, casting people for talent and casting estimates and location scouts to help by sending file photos of possible locations. 

Generally yes I think rates for crew are fair. The exchange rate has most influence on our affordability and there isn't much we can do about that unfortunately. The ratio of successful quotes to unsuccessful ones seems to reflect the exchange rate.

How much of your business is repeat business?

Anzak:  We have a number of repeat clients including a Polish company that comes here every year.

They are less concerned about the fiscal side once they have worked with you the first time.  My clients know that I will give them the best value I can and work with them on their budgets.  A real bond of trust grows and the win to quote ratio is in a much better place with repeat clients.

However the trick is to entice new clients to shoot here that first time and usually at that point money is one of their most important considerations.

William: Yes, almost all of our business is repeat business. Once they have shot with us once they invariably return and shoot with us again. The occasional exception may be where the producer at a particular production company changes and the new person may have their own loyalties.

Is a different mental approach needed of crew in New Zealand?

Anzak: Crew don't necessarily understand their own impact on the situation. They say "this is me, I'm worth this, if you want me then pay the money". We all have a role to play bringing in work. You can't just leave it to the Line Producers. The average $50 rise in day rate on a $500 a day person is actually a 10% pay-rise.  Think about that against what other local industries have had to put up with.  I'm not talking just about crew, but suppliers as well - people like generator hirers as an example. The cost of a generator has gone up in the last few years but then, the cost of living has gone up and people feel justified in doing that and to a certain extent they are.  However they also have to take stock that the world is not in a pretty place. The UK is suffering, the US is too. Asia is doing better in the world although their markets are smaller. Certainly the disaster in Japan is not going to help NZ. Japan has actually been a strong player coming here to shoot commercials so that side of things will probably quieten down now.

All this is background to how people should be thinking. The world is in bad financial shape so instead of putting rates up we should be thinking of holding them in a competitive place or maybe offering some incentives here and there. Then we will get some more work into the country and it will be good for everybody.  They’re always going to come here for all the good things that we have if we price & package it right.

Iris: We in NZ believe that we have the most incredible country and landscape and I also believe we also have the most incredible crews. The thing is one gets complacent and emerging countries have quietly overtaken us. We don't realise this. The fact that we need to upkeep things/improve is not something that is high on our list. We do live in a little bit of a dream world where the locations will be forever jobs/films will just keep coming in.

Overall our heads are in the sand. The real challenges for us are: A) bringing more and more jobs here and B) sorting out smaller issues with Immigration and bigger issues with Actor's Equity and D.O.C.

Crew need to be more proactive in the industry. Be it part of the tech guild and actually going to a bloody meeting for a change or going to a meeting of Film Auckland / Wellington / Queenstown / Southland etc. and becoming a member – i.e. the pressure on locations in downtime Auckland. A handful of producers and location scouts are putting a lot of their own time and effort in actually securing the lifeblood of the industry.

There is an incredible amount of work that goes into preserving and opening up locations which might have had a rough patch and trying to soften it up again so that it can be used on a job again in the future. That only works if the industry (crew & suppliers) are more behind it.  Our voice is only as powerful as the members are. Crew & suppliers need to go to these meetings and help support the industry as a whole. This is not just a Producer’s job. It is part of their business, their success.

What does, and will, turn people off NZ as a filming destination?

Anzak: Strong Currency, increasing cost of production, new cheaper location alternatives increasingly coming on stream around the world, hard time zone, immigration (particularly the way the officers treat our guests when they first arrive).  And my clients do ask me about the weather.  On the bright side we do have all four seasons to take advantage of.

Iris: Immigration and Talent work permit issues, not being able to secure the location they are after (i.e. Frozen lakes, closing of downtown street, non-used motorway off ramps, ....)

Immigration is in the processes of being fixed, but it will take more time to get to a real film friendly set-up. To give you an example of the impact immigration and applying for work permits can have on the industry: I know of two big shoots that didn't go to Canada because the director had an issue with getting his DoP in on a previous shoot. We know Canada is protective of their technicians. That means two multi-million dollar jobs did not go to Canada because of that. The director chose a different destination for his shoot.  The word in the industry worldwide spreads like wildfire. If someone doesn't get a work permit or the feeling that coming to NZ and getting a work permit is hard then we as an industry are going to lose out.

Regarding talent, what can have a competitive effect is having NZ talent on these jobs. The amount of jobs that don't come to NZ for a location, but actually come to shoot in a studio using local talent is increasing. So we rely on a good NZ base of talent. However if the job is an ongoing campaign or involves dialogue well of course we have to bring those key cast in.

Every producer would want to use local talent because it's a big money saver. This simple reality is something that the Actor's Equity does not seem to understand. A bit of trust from their side that we as Line Producers are acting with the best NZ interest in mind, would go a long way.

Keeping locations accessible now and in the future is an ongoing battle and does require a lot of work.  We rely a great deal on Film NZ to keep this on a high priority list.

William:  Naturally production companies and their clients are sensitive to any suggestion that they are getting ripped off. This can be from people outside the industry - for example we were shooting in down town Auckland recently and asked a local business if they could please move a For Sale sign (one of many) from a shop window for a few hours early on a Sunday morning. They said yes, for a $1,000 fee! It was only a small thing but that sort of experience leaves a really bad taste.

Because of the short time frames with most commercial productions it is also really important to be able to get decisions on locations quickly. Wellington has shown what can happen when the city embraces the film industry - they can see the benefits for the whole community and they really make film crews feel welcome there.

Getting visas and work permits for off-shore crew and cast has occasionally been an issue when time frames are short. But the New Zealand Immigration Service are great at turning around applications really quickly when there is a time pressure. The various guilds - techos, directors and producers - can all understand the benefits of bringing in off-shore jobs and are supportive. The only group who don't seem to quite get it are Actors' Equity. I am hoping they might have had a bit of a re-think after the reaction they had from the rest of the industry as a result of the Hobbit debacle. After all, none of us are trying to shaft the local actors - we're trying to bring in more well paid work for them, and are succeeding in that.

What comments can you make about your competitors? Are they experiencing the same problems as you?

Anzak: What I have seen is, there are some companies around that have taken the approach where it’s really most important just to win the job. So they quote really low and they basically cut the money right down so they win the job. They don't actually care if there's enough money set aside or not. They worry about how they're going to do it after the win it. So they win the job and during it, they try to increase their budget to a better level where they can actually achieve it by adding on extra charges.

I've always taken the approach where I offer a fair price that I think I can achieve the budget and give a good level of service and production value for that money, but lately that's not been enough to win the job. But you can see why some companies are taking on these poor tactics, they're trying to survive.

Iris: I spend a lot of time reading about the job, into it and through it. There's a new tendency here over the last few years from some line production companies to bid very low with the philosophy 'let's get the guys here'. Then once they're here they get hammered with little extra for this and little extra for that.  They come in thinking they're spending $200,000 but they end up spending 300,000. When this happens repeatedly, it's damaging the reputation of NZ. It's a company philosophy and for our company it's the wrong philosophy. I believe in being realistic about what it's going to cost then putting every effort in to ensure it remains at the price or lower. This, in the long run, will bring people back.

William: I have no idea how they're doing. There seemed to be plenty of work around this summer, enough to go round.

What recommendations to you have to increase work in NZ?

Anzak: On a purely fiscal level if everyone in the entire industry collectively decided to drop 10% on their rates for a year it would be interesting to see what the industry stats would be like at the end of that. This is not just about the financial side though, but a change of attitude in that we’re all doing something for the industry. Without some sort of change of tactics people are going to fall off and say "I can't sustain working in this industry, I have mouths to feed".

I heard someone in Wellington hadn't done a job the whole of last year. Why? Our heads are in the sand - let's pull them out and look at what our competitors are doing - and I mean in other countries - and let's make sure we're actually offering value and keeping NZ in a prominent position within the international service sector. I think NZ is a very special location but we have to keep it in perspective that there are other options opening up around the world and they are becoming more appealing to people. They only have to go there a couple of times before they say something like "well actually Chile is working OK for me, I am going to keep returning to Chile".  Repeat business is where the real money is at.

Iris: Film NZ, as an example, is an entity that for years has worked hard on the feature film side of things and sometimes it would be nice to get recognition again that the line production jobs are the bread and butter and keep a lot of us entertained. Also a plan from their side as to how they think we can double the number of jobs that come to NZ would be a really good thing to see and I will keep asking for that. It’s important that we figure out where we're tripping. We need to keep reminding people of the creative potential, post production value and the great crews - not just the locations. For the Film side of the industry, a Studio would sure go a long way of getting the big movies to NZ.

William:  We just have to keep doing a great job. Overseas clients will pay a bit more and fly further if they are more confident that they will get what they want here than somewhere else. We have great crews here - including great art department - this is our best competitive advantage. It is also important that clients enjoy themselves. This starts with treating them with respect, no matter what country they are from or how big their budget is. Over the years there have been many times when we have done quite a small job with someone, but next year they come back with a bigger one. It is also important to look after them off set. The production crew, including runners and drivers, in Queenstown lead the way here - all our clients enjoy shooting there because they just have a great time. They want to come back and do it again.

What final comments do you have?

Anzak: No one wants to be seen to be not doing very well. I have enough work to survive and I'm still here and I love what I do so aren’t about to give it up, but it could be better for me and all of us. What will make this industry survive and strive forward is perceived value for money. That's what I try to provide for my clients which in the past in NZ has been easy to do.

Rates went up in NZ during the recession and that's a fact. That is a sad, bad fact. Everyone will justify that saying the cost of living has gone up, but did the teachers get a pay-rise? Everyone was thankful they didn't because it comes from our taxes. Everyone else needs to get behind the same kind of sentiment, get this awesome country flying again, and grow the huge potential of our production sector.

Iris: We have a great thing going, let’s keep aligning the image we have created with the reality. Film friendly NZ is not just a slogan, it is something we all need to keep working on every day. I would like to see crew to be more proactive and get involved to secure their future in the industry. 

William: We've been doing this for a very long time, and over that period we've had some great years and some not so good ones. But it always seems to come back. Sometimes it isn't anything to do with what we are offering down here - some other country has become the new "hot" location that everyone wants to shoot at for a while, or something unexpected has had an impact - like SARs or whatever. But if we have a quiet year one year it seems to bounce back the next as our clients go "oh, we haven't shot in New Zealand for a while".

Changing technology will keep having an impact. Some people have been predicting the end of the big budget television commercial for a while as free to air audiences dwindle - it hasn't happened quite yet. But at the bottom end of the spectrum we do see people shooting very good commercials with minimal kit using DSLR stills cameras.

In summary, we just have to keep on improving and sell the many advantages we do have down here. I guess, as line producers, that's a big part of our job. We have to keep going out there and telling the story. Many of us spend quite a considerable amount of money and time travelling to meet production companies around the world; attending trade shows and festivals; advertising in magazines and directories and so on. Often there isn't any immediate pay back - but overall it seems to be working. There are a lot more off shore commercials shot in New Zealand now than even 10 years ago, and I think there is the potential to do a lot more.